i remember the howard jarvis tax revolution. you had a whole sequence of sort of radical conservatives. also, obviously, the beginnings of the religious right in the south. this was not a traditional conservatism. and so there is my post- conservatism argument. >> >> that was more the politics of the rich and poor. at the time, you were really seeing what was an early stage build up when i wrote "the politics of rich and poor," which was then a major buildup. it went on to be what we finally saw break apart in 2008. >> we talked about richard nixon. but before that, would you think of lyndon johnson? >> -- what do you think of lyndon johnson? >> i was never a fan of lyndon johnson. i don't think that his legacy is terrific. he was obviously a very capable man. in the number of ways, he was like nixon. he was suspicious of everybody. he will not be remembered as what he would like to be remembered as. obviously, he was capable and did some things as nixon did some things. johnson -- there will not put up a statue of lyndon johnso